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(#1)
darknight909
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PSU: ThermalTake SilentPower 480w/laptop Differences between windows xp and vista shown here - 01-13-2006, 14:30
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http://www.bentuser.com/article.aspx?ID=332&page=1
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(#2)
CJ3D
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Good read, cheers
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(#3)
bakuryu
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PSU: 500W Antec SmartPower 2.0 01-13-2006, 23:38
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That really was a good link.
*starts preparations for machine upgrade for Vista*
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(#4)
CJ3D
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PSU: Antec 400w 01-14-2006, 00:37
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lol yeah i'm holding off until Vista arrives too.
Upgrading from an AGP system to a PCI-e + 7800 is a waste of money.
*waits for the 8800GTX*
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(#5)
dcx_badass
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PSU: 400W (will check the make) 01-14-2006, 16:43
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Bah i just test it myself, get an idea of how it runs on my pc that way, and it runs great.
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(#6)
Kon$olE
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Ugh... all the things that it looks like they tryd to make easier, just look harder. Typing to find a program? The new and extremly confusing my computer look? Media player that shows all those files?
IE7 looks okay, but it also looks like it copying firefox.
Control Panel and everything in it looks better.
All in all, some huge improvements and a few steps backwards.
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(#7)
darknight909
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PSU: ThermalTake SilentPower 480w/laptop 01-14-2006, 17:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kon$olE
Ugh... all the things that it looks like they tryd to make easier, just look harder. Typing to find a program? The new and extremly confusing my computer look? Media player that shows all those files?
IE7 looks okay, but it also looks like it copying firefox.
Control Panel and everything in it looks better.
All in all, some huge improvements and a few steps backwards.
No, what he was saying that sometimes when you are looking for a program in your start menu and you cant find it, you can just type the name of it
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(#8)
King Lui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ3D
lol yeah i'm holding off until Vista arrives too.
Upgrading from an AGP system to a PCI-e + 7800 is a waste of money.
*waits for the 8800GTX*
me too. i'm going to build a powerhouse machine to run all software a games maxxed out when vista comes out.. it'll be my own comp and not the family comp.
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(#9)
Dr. Vodka
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PSU: NogaNet 500w 20A 12v 01-14-2006, 18:09
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Nice read! I like some of the features... I don't like that much some of them..... but I'll get used to them when I get "forced" to upgrade. XP is fine for now. Leave vista for the following years, when M$ hopefully have ironed out almost all the bugs.
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(#10)
bakuryu
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PSU: 500W Antec SmartPower 2.0 01-15-2006, 05:25
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I am not worried about what MS did to IE7 or to the new media player.
I'll always use Firefox and Media Player Classic.
Let's see what MS does to directx in Vista
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(#11)
Pipoloko
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PSU: ATX 450W 01-16-2006, 02:28
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Niceeee, seems to be good! I'm waiting for the release
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(#12)
volkov956
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PSU: PCPOWER Cooling 610w 01-16-2006, 21:10
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hmm I will be the first to say I gonna skip Vista, I also skipped XP after beta testing it and seeing the Full Version First Hand just another Hog of a OS. Just looks purty not really improved just visually. I rather have a Bland Looking OS that runs hell alot faster then looking nice
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(#13)
tallonx
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PSU: 500~ish Watt 01-17-2006, 17:04
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hopefully windows will upgrade from the 3.1 base that its been using for, what, 20 years now? I mean really... lol I think a clear whipe and re-write would be a greeeeeeeeeeat idea ^^
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(#14)
Incognito5000
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PSU: Enermax Noisetaker EG495P-VE 485W 01-18-2006, 16:36
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All I gotta say is "MEIHHHHHHHHHHHHHH".
Okie I got more to say actually but that giant "MEIH" sums up my feelings mostly about Vista.
It's a bloated "pretty" looking OS that is literally just a money grab on Microsofts part. What's even worse is they stripped WinFS (c'mon Microsoft...I mean c'mon!!).
Also, another gripe I have is that a good chunk of the features in Vista can be retrofitted/graphed/made to work on XP. That's the thing that almost bothers me the most, because Microsoft know's that Vista isn't really anything special...they know that these features can be ported to XP...it's just $$$$ they want (but it's MS so it's not surprising). Still pissess me off though...so blatant...
I don't know about the rest of you but am holding off upgrading as long as possible, XP's a fine stable OS and I don't see what Vista can offer to me that XP does not at the moment.
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(#15)
Drizzt
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PSU: OCZ Powerstream 520W 01-18-2006, 18:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognito5000
All I gotta say is "MEIHHHHHHHHHHHHHH".
Okie I got more to say actually but that giant "MEIH" sums up my feelings mostly about Vista.
It's a bloated "pretty" looking OS that is literally just a money grab on Microsofts part. What's even worse is they stripped WinFS (c'mon Microsoft...I mean c'mon!!).
Also, another gripe I have is that a good chunk of the features in Vista can be retrofitted/graphed/made to work on XP. That's the thing that almost bothers me the most, because Microsoft know's that Vista isn't really anything special...they know that these features can be ported to XP...it's just $$$$ they want (but it's MS so it's not surprising). Still pissess me off though...so blatant...
I don't know about the rest of you but am holding off upgrading as long as possible, XP's a fine stable OS and I don't see what Vista can offer to me that XP does not at the moment.
You are forgetting directx 10. Depending on how that plays out gamers might not have the option of skipping out on vista.
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(#16)
Incognito5000
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Soundcard: Sound Blaster Audigy 2 | Z-5300E
PSU: Enermax Noisetaker EG495P-VE 485W 01-18-2006, 18:10
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*sigh* true, nearly forgot about DirectX 10 (Ohhhh, and another piece of software that they can retrofit to XP...stupid MS...).
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(#17)
orenda635
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PSU: CoolerMaster RealPower 450w / Batt 01-18-2006, 18:11
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Vista looks oddly like Apple's OS X Tiger. Even the new Windows Explorer has a very similar layout to OS X's Finder. I guess Apple's comeback (slow as it is) has frightened Microsoft. I can tell you that this is going to require some serious horse power. OS X has a lot of similar features to Vista and it uses huge amounts of system ram. OS X can easily gobble up 512mb with a couple programs running.
Quote:
hmm I will be the first to say I gonna skip Vista, I also skipped XP after beta testing it and seeing the Full Version First Hand just another Hog of a OS.
Well it is a hog but its not a bad OS. With the exception of Windows 2000, XP certainly is a lot more stable that its predecessors. XP does have its hickups though. If Vista offers increased stability, I'll get it.
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(#18)
Animatrix
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PSU: 01-19-2006, 04:05
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What ever bad there is to say about MS and their OS's (i agree there are serious issues) i must say i personally feel it get's to much beating and most of the focus is needlessly on the bad. Quite frankly i think a lot of people just jump on the band wagon and don't really investigate for themselves.
IMO claiming that nothing new is going into Vista (under the hood) and that it's all eye candy don't speek the truth. It's easy to notice eye candy but that not the same as it being the only thing there.
http://channel9.msdn.com/tags/Windows+Vista
http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going_Deep
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(#19)
bug77
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PSU: Chieftec 410W 01-19-2006, 07:05
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Looks like a lot of eye-candy. Now the GPUs will never have a chance to reduce clock frequency because they'll be in 3D mode all the time
Oh, well...
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(#20)
jx1-f
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PSU: 01-19-2006, 08:45
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MS Vista
Looks great, cleaner. But at the same time. Some things do feel awfully like MAC OSX o__O;
BUt in the latter we shall have to install it no matter what.. o__o;
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(#21)
Incognito5000
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PSU: Enermax Noisetaker EG495P-VE 485W 01-19-2006, 09:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animatrix
What ever bad there is to say about MS and their OS's (i agree there are serious issues) i must say i personally feel it get's to much beating and most of the focus is needlessly on the bad. Quite frankly i think a lot of people just jump on the band wagon and don't really investigate for themselves.
IMO claiming that nothing new is going into Vista (under the hood) and that it's all eye candy don't speek the truth. It's easy to notice eye candy but that not the same as it being the only thing there.
http://channel9.msdn.com/tags/Windows+Vista
http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going_Deep
I'm not saying they're not adding anything new under the hood, what I'm saying is that all the under the hood benefits are features that could be added to XP with a service pack update.
Tell me what Vista honestly can offer me over XP...other than the hyped up memory hogging interface?
Oh, and don't get me wrong, I love glossy effects as much as the next person, but not when I have to devote a significant amount of my system resources to support them all the time.
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(#22)
Advis
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PSU: Shuttle SilentX 250W 01-19-2006, 14:40
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Doesn't look too bad IMHO. But holy crap have you seen how many control panel applets there is?!? I think I'm against buying Vista at the moment as I want clarification on the OpenGL controversy and I'll stick to my personal golden rule of waiting for the first service pack .
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(#23)
Morpheous416
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PSU: CoolMax 500w 01-19-2006, 15:12
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I am still tweaking the heck outta XP.....I'll wait til Vista SP1.
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(#24)
Crystallas
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I keep asking myself one question.
How many times am I going to have to re-install this crap just to figure out how to get rid of MS's incorperated bloatware and idiot-scripts until I get it up to snuff.
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(#25)
Animatrix
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PSU: 01-21-2006, 01:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognito5000
I'm not saying they're not adding anything new under the hood, what I'm saying is that all the under the hood benefits are features that could be added to XP with a service pack update.
Tell me what Vista honestly can offer me over XP...other than the hyped up memory hogging interface?
Oh, and don't get me wrong, I love glossy effects as much as the next person, but not when I have to devote a significant amount of my system resources to support them all the time.
Just to be clear my comment wasn't directed against anyone in particular, it was a general observation.
Anyways for your questions.
1. Much of the stuff developed for Vista may in fact come to XP, but MS is not very clear about it at this point.
Quote:
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/driver/wdf/UMDF_FAQ.mspx
Q. Which operating systems support the UMDF?
A. UMDF drivers can run on Windows Vista. Support for UMDF on Windows XP is being considered for the Windows Vista release timeframe.
Whether all changes can be done using a XP to Vista upgrade CD, maybe. After all you can upgrade from 9x (95/98) to XP. However just by file patching with a SP to me sound unfeasible. For one the obvious reason, namely if you can just apply all changes to XP as free updates, why would any XP user buy Vista ?. IMO it's likely also just a bad idea, file patching can be bad enough even with few changes. (e.g. XP vanilla (or even SP1) to SP2 update have given many people troubles, they did not find on a clean install with the SP slipstreamed on the CD.)
2. Actually, as before mention there are big changes made all of which you can (potentially) benefit from. I strongly suggest you watch the channel 9 video(s).
To stay with the core stuff.
2.1. Parts of both the audio stack and GFX subsystem has been moved from what's known as kernel mode into user mode, along with a new UMDF driver model (User-Mode Driver Framework ). That is a pretty big core change which should lead to fewer BSOD's as user mode can't cause the same system troubles as kernel mode. Drivers can/will "pass it off" to kernel mode when needed.
Quote:
A user-mode driver is started by the Driver Manager and runs in a driver host process. A single instance of the driver can service simultaneous requests from multiple applications. To communicate with the driver, applications issue I/O requests to the driver's device through the Win32 API.
User-Mode Driver Framework (UMDF)
2.2. The system also got new things, like the thread scheduling service.
We are here talking about the underlying architecture, thread scheduling and im guessing the quantum (lengths of threads) also found on XP. The quantum is a "rule set" for threads where process threads according to system rules starts out with a quantum value which may be a boosted value, from foreground window boosting. Then the process's quantum value decays over time down to it's base value (normal priority, or 8). Highest priority rule, which means that with many processes running you can get into race conditions where threads compete for execution. But with no "intelligent" control there is little the system can do or know about which processes might be most important.
The Vista thread scheduling service can make changes on the fly. Processes can be registered as part of a multimedia class (by the programmer) and then the thread scheduler can give more priority to these threads then other "normal" processes. Among other things it can actually boost a process's *combined thread priority beyond what's known on XP as real time priority (or 24). It only happens briefly when a process needs to get things done and can't have others interfere.
(* watching the video again, it at least sounds like there is a "combined thread priority". Which means that if your doing a "job" involving many different process threads, possibly across multiple processes, all the threads associated with the "job", will get boosted. e.g. capturing both video and audio.)
http://www.sysinternals.com/Informat...0Quantums.html
Video: Rob Short (and kernel team) - Going deep inside Windows Vista's kernel architecture
I have marked out some stuf and the time on the video.
5:25 Brief run down of some of the new core stuff in Vista.
6:00 Power Management.
8:10 Very brief mention of Memory Management.
a). Improving the NUMA support (Non-Uniform Memory Architecture). Which deals with Multiprocessor systems and correct/better allocation of cache memory (i.e. avoid cache thrashing, by making sure memory is allocated on the cache of the CPU that is doing the related work).
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Uniform_Memory_Access
Non-Uniform Memory Access or Non-Uniform Memory Architecture (NUMA) is a computer memory design used in multiprocessors, where the memory access time depends on the memory location relative to a processor. Under NUMA, a processor can access its own local memory faster than non-local memory, that is, memory which is local to another processor or shared between processors.
b). Share/swap memory between system and GFX card, swapping data from system to GFX RAM.
9:30 Very brief mention of Kernel Virtual Address Space. I believe he is refering to how the systems Virtual Address Space can run out of page tables and how this is now "fixed" or adjusted automatically.
11:30 Talk on user-mode drivers.
15:35 Talk on thread scheduling service.
2.3. The sound driver and control is now made so that you set a global sample rate to fit your hardware (sound card) sample rate. Besides some overall benefits there should be by getting a global sample rate which matches your hardware. What this also mean is that sounds played with different sample rates do not interfere with each other when played simultaneously. As it is now on XP, you can actually get down sampling. i.e. when a lower sample file (e.g. XP sounds) playes at the same time as your hearing music, your music can get down sampled.
Vista Audio Stack and API (video)
3. Just as in XP, you can turn off all the effects.
Remember XP was also a lot more eye candy then win 98 when it came out. And some people were saying the same things they are saying now about Vista. However IMO those who actually know about the changes made to the GDI subsystem resources know that XPs graphical handling is much much better the 98. On 98 the GDI and user resources are fixed (64kb for compatibility with DOS), not so on NT/2000/XP (There are still resource limits, and adjustable rules found in the registry dealing with various resource handling).
http://www.aumha.org/win4/a/resource.htm
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/arc...t/default.mspx
If they get it right, im actualy guessing, or hoping, the gains can be better then what we saw going from 98 to XP. This part of Vista is not complete so a final verdict can't be given. But i can assure that the theory behind the GDI changes is ment for it to "do better" then the current system.
I should not have to say this but im here talking about the end product, and anyone making wild assumptions about anything based on older builds, demos or word to mouth, are IMO not even taking this very seriously. The system requirements also got over exaggerated in the beginning, and a lot of assumptions seem to still be based on old beta builds with heavy leaks and all kinds of issues.
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Last edited by Animatrix : 01-21-2006 at 01:54.
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